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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 | 9:50am
Rush Counters Fallon’s Bachman ‘Bitch’ Intro with ‘Baby Got Back’ For The First Lady
Which is more offensive? Michelle Obama being introduced to the Sir Mix-A-Lot track or Bachman
Everyone who knows me knows I love The Roots. So when they used their platform as the house band for Late Night with Jimmy Fallon to introduce GOP presidential candidate, Rep. Michele Bachmann to a cover of “Lyin’ Ass Bitch,” I knew it wouldn’t come without controversey.
While I missed the opportunity to blog about it originally, conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh has been giving the story legs with his assertion that if Michelle Obama were to appear on his radio show, he would introduce the first lady with Sir-Mix-A-Lot’s 1992 hit “Baby Got Back.”
“Ladies and gentlemen, it is not often that we have guests here on this program at the EIB Network,” Limbaugh said. “But as today as it can often happen, we have an exception and I am proud and I am honored and I want to introduce to the microphones of this program the First Lady of the United States Michelle ‘Mochelle’ Obama.”
Further playing on the theme Limbaugh suggested the Sir-Mix-A-Lot tune was on the iPod he gave the Queen of England in 2009.
“I wonder if that song was on the iPod that Barack gave the Queen the first time he went over to visit here in the U.K.,” Limbaugh said. “Now you people are probably saying, ‘Rush, that’s tasteless – how could you possibly?’ I’m just trying to illustrate. That’s what we do here on this program sometimes. You illustrate absurdity by being absurd.”
Now while I rarely align with the right I’ve gotta give two points to the conservatives. While I personally am not a huge fan of Bachmann I’ve gotta call foul on Fallon and The Roots. Its cute, yeah its its funny but maybe I’m just sensitive to calling a Presidential Candidate, hell any woman a “bitch”. Its just not appropriate late night or not. On the flip side, I’d figure Rush to be a bit more hostile. Baby Got Back is probably a little inappropriate for the First Lady but considering there’s not question of your Fatty Acids, I’d tend to agree. Advantage RUSH! But what say you Racial Determination Committee?!
FILED IN Need to Know, News
to quote rush at the end ‘We illustrate absurdity by being absurd’.
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So obviously this was a joke with a message.
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Is it in poor taste for the first lady? Probably, but I don’t think it’s necessarily racist.
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But then again, I haven’t checked out Michelle’s ass lately. If it was THAT big, she’d already have been in the Fat Back column
Not Racist??!! “Michelle Mochelle Obama” doesn’t sound racist to you? Especially coming from this Racist Asshole?! Does he need to call her “Moesha” or “Seely”? … FUCK rush…I can’t think of anyone I hate…I despise this dude…if his life was ever in my hands, I would do the world a favor…
Not necessarily.
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As a public figure with an (arguably) controversial stance on certain things, Michelle Obama doesn’t get a free pass simply because she’s black or because she’s a woman.
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In the old days, women were treated a fragile little children, too weak and stupid to take care of themselves, subject to their husband’s benevolent dictatorship.
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But that’s not the case is it? Women are just as equal as men. Just as talented, just as smart, and just responsible.
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But that comes at a cost. If you want to attack like an equal, you have to defend as an equal. Would anyone, for example, claim that Hillary Clinton isn’t as tough as any guy on the street? And trust me, they’ve been treating Mrs Obama gentle in comparison to how they treated Hillary.
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This is not the case of a wife who chooses to remain in the background, or who limits herself to what has traditionally been a ‘womans role’. Michelle has adopted (like Hillary), the ‘equal partner’ role of first lady. A role where she expects that her opinion on matters will be weighed along with others. In choosing that role, she must, automatically, accept that it comes with the knowledge that your opinions can be challenged just like everyone else’s.
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And, in choosing a public life, the First Lady must also accept that she’s also fair game for jokes, parody, mocking, and everything else that comes with being a celebrity.
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Now, as for Rush… you said ‘especially coming from that racist asshole’. Did I miss a meeting? When was it determined that Rush is a racist? In all seriousness (because I haven’t seen it), point me to the quote that shows me that Rush is racist.
Sometimes if poeple are told something enough, they just believe it.
Hillary maybe but Laura Bush and her daughters got off scott free. Yeah I think Rush is a prick and I wouldn’t be surprised if he were a racist but he’s not shown me much evidence of that if any. Prejudice no doubt. Inappropriate? always. I can’t call him racist.
Re: Laura Bush
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But that’s an example of what I mean. She (like Mrs Carter and Mrs Johnson) chose a traditional role for the first lady. They didn’t talk politics, so they were not subject to the same rules of attack.
Are we talking about the same rush limbaugh here, or did the rest of you get amnesia?!
Mrs. Obama is off limits to “Political Commentators” because she is not a politician, just as Laura Bush. She is not holding press conferences on policies or exhorting Republicans to compromise with Democrats. Moreover, limbaugh is NOT a comedian. Comedians crack jokes. He is a racist junkie with a soapbox, full of hateful diatribe usually aimed at anyone non-white….Since you all have forgotten, these are some of his more memorable racist quotes:
“I mean, let’s face it, we didn’t have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: slavery built the South. I’m not saying we should bring it back; I’m just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark.”
“Look, let me put it to you this way: the NFL all too often looks like a game between the Bloods and the Crips without any weapons. There, I said it.”
“The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies.”
[To an African American female caller]: “Take that bone out of your nose and call me back.”
“You know who deserves a posthumous Medal of Honor? James Earl Ray [the confessed assassin of Martin Luther King]. We miss you, James. Godspeed.”
RUSH IS NOT RACIST???!!!
Of the quotes you listed, 1, 3, 4 and 6 have been reasonably disproven as hoaxes.
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/limbaugh.asp
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As for quotes 2 and 5:
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Quote 2: about NFL looking like a battle between bloods and crips… Lets break it down into its parts
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This is a picture of NFL player Al Harris:
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http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6JZQgdxfGGT6u4rabt3KOQ
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This is a picture of generic Crip tattoos.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crip_tattoos.jpg
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You have to admit, they do kind of LOOK alike.
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Now, as far as the ‘war without weapons”, this is a video of Detroit Lion Ndamukong Suh from his last game, bashing someone’s head against the ground and kicking them when they’re down.
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http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/ndamukong-suh-ejected-detroit-lions-green-bay-packers-112411
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So let’s put this together… you have two groups of heavily tattooed men facing off against each other in a “field”. They are easily identifiable by the colors they wear, they “rush” and “block”, and often fight with no rules of fair play.
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Do you know what that sounds like to me…. That kind of sounds like a game between the bloods and the crips without any weapons… lol.
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About Quote 5: Bone in nose.
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I’m not going to give you this picture, which is a white guy with what appears to be a bone in his nose.
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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oY4Tn9cNP-k/TJDKCu2rEDI/AAAAAAAAAEk/51Yy5fRnDlc/s400/Nose+Extream+Piercing+on+Man.jpg
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Instead, I will surrender the point. He should not have told this woman to get the bone out of her nose 35 years ago.
A racist is someone who truly believes that someone else is inferior in some way based solely on their race, not someone who makes stupid, off color comments or one whom pre-judges others (lest we would all be racist I think).
And reading those quotes, how can you tell if he really believes it in his heart or if he is just spouting off at the mouth? Looking at them, it’s obvious to me he hates Black people…That is on him, not me…He is not stupid, he knows who his audience is and he caters to them…but the rest of the world is listening as well, tho, and he doesn’t care about the things he says being hurtful and demeaning to people … because he considers us inferior/insignificant….so, again, FUCK him.
Rush “Pill Pop’n” Limbaugh is a racist KKK member who talks mad shit about blacks in general 4get Obama . Malcolm come on playboy U r very intellegent so don’t come with that BULLSHIT with how is Rush a racist, hell even Stevie Wonder can see Rush is a racist which is his busines but don’t deny the shit though. Google his show or I am sure u even watch it at times. I catch it just 2 prove my point on how AmeriKKKa thinks.AmeriKKKa thinks just like Rush but won’t admit it.He said and I quote Y should we listen 2 the opinion of a group that only makes up 13% of the population he said African Americans I said group 2 make it sound not so cold. Him, Ann aka Drag Queen Andy Coulter, Sean Hannity,That Beck muthufucka, Bill O’Racist Reilly all r some racist bitch made assholes. It’s just 2 bad we don’t have any XXXtremist 2 counter the venom they spit. I see him as a closet Drag Queen like J.Edgar Hoover just say’n.
If America as a whole was as racist as you say, we never would have elected Obama.
Ok but now check all the blame he gets from being elected, he is blamed 4 the Economy, the War, 9/11, Hurricaine Katrina,The Federal Building bombing in OK.K.Klan…homa,The Valdez Exxon Oil spill in 1989,the 1 last year,the space shuttle tragedy in 1986,the Iran Hostage shit…uation in 1980 .Watergate,the Kent University massacre.John Lennon being shot,Atlanta Child Murders from 1979-1981, Vietnam, and of course the Kennedy Assassination. All Obama’s fault damn him!!Tell me 1 President who has had more blame put 2 them than President Obeezee name me 1, please.
Racist, NO. Funny as hell, POSSIBLY.
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This all just reconfirms my theory that most people’s maturity peaks at high school and all else left to become an adult is to pay a bill or two.
Rush needs to be judge on the content of his character!!! Actually he is more of character then he is radio/tv personality. His track record is not the best in the world. Trust and believe he has a bunch of skeletons in his closet and if they got out all the right wing, GOP flunkies would drop him like a bad habit!!!
@ EL DIAZ….
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I tried posting a response twice last night but it didn’t go through, so I’ll try again leaving out the links.
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Of the quotes you’ve listed, all but 2 have been reasonably proven as myths.
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The 2 that can be linked to him are: NFL looking like gang fight without weapons & the bone in the nose.
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As far as the NFL:
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Two groups of heavily tattooed men gather on a field facing each other. Each group is easily identified by the colors they are wearing. The often go at each other and brawl without rules (ref: Suh last week).
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You know what that reminds me of? It kind of reminds me of the Crips and Bloods playing without weapons…lol.
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The other quote (bone in nose)… I’ll give you that one… 35 years ago, he shouldn’t have told that woman to get the bone out of her nose.
It’s amazing how you are trying to justify this dude, Malcolm! I guess people see what they want to see, for whatever reason. He has a history and a pattern of saying vile, hateful, racist comments to audience of millions, without any regard of consequences. He regularly lets the world in on what is on his mind, and to some of us, it is very plain and clear to see…
Wow, Malcolm You need quotes that say he is Racist? OK
“Rush Limbaugh is a Racist ass Mutha …”
There you go!!!
LOL, But Ok He is more like very Prejudice. Being racist mean he will have to have the power to implement his pre-judged ideas.
As far as America not being racist for Electing our current President? I will say we have come along way as Americans in somewhat a fast time. But a lot of powers that be in America are racist. Since Barack Obama was elected I have never seen the amount of Disrespect shown to any other president even before he signed any policies (you Lie outburst). I would have loved to see what would have happened to and congressman that had an outburst like that when Bush was in Office (given the fact that he did lie about the reasons for going to Iraq). Then we had this big tea party movement about talking about the economy( where the hell were they when Bush was borrowing money from China to fund wars we couldn’t pay for?) and Him not being a Legal citizen to be able to hold office. Lets not forget about the comments made about the President being stupid. And this wouldn’t normally bother me if he didn’t a degree from Harvard Law. Also the big up tick in White supremacist groups after he was elected and lastly the accidentally leaked travel plans while the President was in Australia all leads me to believe that while we want to believe that we are in a post racial society we are still far from it. We are hell of a lot closer than we were. But No where near we need to be.
@NTS5…
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OK, to cover both of your replies….
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On Rush…
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I won’t rule out that he might be a racist, I’m just saying in the few months I’ve listened to him, I’ve not heard anything I would call racist. And for the quotes given as an example, of the 8, I accept 1, I debate 1, and I challenge 6.
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Now, I’ve heard Rush make mean comments based on someone’s political beliefs, personal history, and physical quirks a lot. I’m not arguing that he’s not a mean person. I’m simply saying that from what I’ve heard, his attacks on people seem more political than racial.
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Two examples… Whenever Rush does a Barney Frank imitation, he over-emphasizes Frank’s lisp. Is he doing that because Frank is gay, or because he hates Frank’s politics and is making fun of a physical trait? (like some do to Rush because he’s a fat ass).
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Or… whenever he talks about Jesse Jackson, he always drawls out the term “reverend”, as in “Revvvvvereeeennnd Jackson”. Is he doing that because Jackson is black? Or is he doing it because he believes (as I do I must confess) that Jackson is a fraud who uses his one-time connection to Dr King as a means to bamboozle people out of money by being a professional complainer?
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One of the things I like about being in the Racial Determination Committee is that we can have complex arguments and try to cut through to the root of the question.
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The issue is made more complicated by the fact that we now have a black President. We could easily fall into a situation where ANY criticism of the President creates claims of racism. I personally think that would be bad for everyone and bad for the country.
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The tea party…
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Complaints about the Bush team spending like drunken sailers is part of the REASON the tea party came into being.
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I understand the tea party. We old-school republicans spend DECADES bitching about all of the spending. Then we finally get a republican who promises something to do about it (Bush 2), and he winds up spending more than anyone before him.
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At that point, some of us in the party got fed up and decided to challenge the neo-con takeover of the party by forming a more libertarian and anti-debt wing. Part of this group morphed into the tea party that we know today.
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Obama being picked on….
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I would say they treated Clinton a lot worse. Just as Clinton took office, they tried to make hay about the travel office firings, Hillary’s ‘profit’ in the stock market. They even went as far as to accuse them of complicity in the ‘murder’ of Vince Foster.
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As far as calling him stupid, they’re allowed to do that, it’s a free country. They did the same thing with Bush 2, claiming that he had bought his way through college and mocking his simple sounding manner of speech. (Remember the SNL skits during the debates leading up to the election?)
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On the rise in Nazi membership…
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The good news is that Obama got elected, so there’s more of the good guys than the bad guys. I suppose there would be an uptick in the membership of these society, as people who were on the edge to begin with see Obama’s election as the end of the world.
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But… we ARE getting better, and with each generation, schools and parents are helping us move to a more tolerant society.
No, I agree that Picking on him about being stupid is just part of the territory. But when lumped together with everything else it seems a bit more suspect sense Black folks were depicted as bafoons and idiots in the past in movies,posters ect..
And Barney frank has a Bad lisp But i didn’t think that meant he was Sweet in the tank. I would make fun of his Lisp. And I disagree with you on how Clinton got it worse.
But we can agree that we are getting better as a society but Racism is still here and strong.
Lisping in film and television has long been code word for homosexual.
Not in the manner that he does it. If his lisp was followed a broken wrist, switch of the hips or multi colored eye lashes then ok. But his lisp doesn’t sound Gay as much like a speech impediment.
You’re probably right. As I look back on Humphrey Bogart in The Big Sleep, it’s as much about mannerisms.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNhPdJFZcQ&feature=related
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Lol.. and it does seem kind of twisted that we’re debating whether Rush is attacking a person because they’re gay, or attacking them because they have a physical handicap.
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Kind of like… is it more evil to kill someone by drowning than by shooting.
@ NTS5…
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Ok, I’d like to go a little deeper if you’re up for it.
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Part of this is going to play into a saying by a famous German philosopher… ‘we take compliments from people we dislike as insults.’
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I want to talk about ‘ism’s in general, and whether racism (given that it is at least as bad) is worse than the other kinds of ism’s (sexism, prejudice against one or more religions, prejudice against the poor, etc)
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I am, by ethnicity, part Italian. I have Italians in my own family who have lived their entire lives convinced that there is some sort of deep hidden prejudice against Italian Americans. Every time an Italian gets arrested for a crime, it wasn’t because they were guilty; it was because they were Italian. To believe them, all white Protestants live their lives waiting for an opportunity to screw the Italians.
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I shouldn’t have to mention this but I will anyway – I have always thought that people like this were laughable.
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They were suspicious by nature, they were on a cause, and they lavished in their ability to point out, once again, that the only reason Alexander Graham Bell is called the inventor of the telephone is because he stole the idea from an Italian.
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I’m also German. So growing up I also had to hear the stories about how our family (who had the unlucky last name of Kaiser) had to hide out in the forests of northern Michigan during world war 1 to avoid being attacked by anti-german hooligans who would drive the back roads looking for trouble.
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And I’m part Irish, and we all know about that. So at any given moment of my life, I had one relative or another telling me how I was being persecuted for one reason or another.
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So here’s the funny part: about 2 months ago, while waiting in line to order a Subway sandwich, I was subjected to honest to goodness anti-Italian prejudice. I’m 47 years old, and that is the first time in my life that I had actually ever seen anti-Italian prejudice in real life.
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(Side note: customer ahead of me says to clerk… ‘you can always tell the eye-talians because they order ‘DE” provolone cheese.’ The then goes into a bad imitation of an Italian… ‘ahhh I be an eye-talian. I eat DE provolone cheese’ , that lasted for about 3 minutes.)
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Now, if certain members of my family members had been there, they would have gone into a loud fainting spell, swinging the arm of injustice with one hand while dialing the local TV news stations with the other.
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But my reaction was and still is different. I couldn’t have been more amazed if I had seen Bigfoot up there ordering a sandwich, and I still nearly pee myself laughing as I write about it. I actually treasure the story.
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Now, to try to tie it back to my main point…
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The same person who is anti-Italian is also anti-jew, and anti-liberal, probably anti-Catholic, and almost certainly anti-black.
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They are the type of person who hates. So if they weren’t hating someone because they were a jew, they would be hating them because they drive a better car or put out their garbage too soon.
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So what I am saying is this… is the METHOD of hate in itself the problem, or is it incidental, more of a prop. That is… Is hating someone because they are black different or worse than hating someone because they are Catholic or are gay?
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Acknowledging 400 years of slavery in America makes it especially important to be mindful of racial bigotry. And because of that dark historical stain, it is RIGHT that the punishment for racial bigotry is harsh. (Just as in Germany today, the punishment for pro-nazi action or speech is punished harder than other racial or political acts).
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But there is no American alive today who ever owned a slave. And because of this, it is just as important to assume that a person is deemed racially innocent until proven guilty.
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What I am asking is this… In the case of rush Limbaugh, is it racism if he uses race as a tool, even if he would use any other tool on his victim if he didn’t have race to use?
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The answer of course is… YES. Of course it would be racism. But that leads me to the second point I want to raise.
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Go back to the subway sandwich incident. Had my relative been there, she would have claimed anti-Italian prejudice. And she probably could have successfully argued her point. The media would run it as a human interest story, and the president of Subway would have to make a PR statement that all employees would be taking sensitivity training.
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But there is a question of damage, and whether that one incident would give her an excuse or somehow justify a lifetimes worth of unwarranted and unjust paranoia.
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For years she’s given the evil eye to every cashier, every storekeeper, every stranger. She lived a life of deep suspicion always looking for the next reason to be offended.
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And in doing so, she also spent an entire lifetime shouting baseless accusations against storekeepers who didn’t know she was Italian, weren’t interested, and who couldn’t care less who invented the telephone.
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Now back to Rush… We hear that he said this or he said that. We can prove that he said at least one thing a long time ago which may or may not hint at a pattern of hidden thought today.
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In listening to him, I have caught him on at least a few occasions pretending not to understand a question or situation, feigning outrage shouting ‘facts’ he knows isn’t true; all for comic effect.
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But other than the bone in the nose, I’m still waiting to hear a specific instance of racial hate. It’s one thing to say he’s a racist because you know he’s a racist, but it’s another to point to an actual example in recent times.
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For years there have been rumors that former FBI head J Edgar Hoover liked to wear womens clothing. In the 50 years it has been going around, there was never a single piece of actual evidence to back up this claim. And yet, 50 years later, the rumor is so deep in our collective thought that it’s being presented as fact in the biopic currently at a theater near you.
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Show me, that’s all I’m asking. Give me an example of rush being a racist. I’m not married to the guy. If you show me an example in context I’ll line up with the next guy to throw rotten fruit at him.
And the guy who’s being used as the source for 6 out of the 8 original “rush quotes” claimed, in the same book, that Gangsta Rap was invented by Interscope Records.
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You can decide for yourself whether you want to take this guys word on anything.
Time for a little levity I think
http://www.atlnightspots.com/2011/jael-lima-model-of-the-moment-smooth-jamaica-video
Alright Malcolm, I appreciate your experience and i will share some of mine. I am an African American Muslim(Black man) living in New England but born and Half raised in Cincinnati,OH. I am not a 1% or from the Nation of Islam. I was raised Sunni Muslim. While living in Cincinnati we had drug dealers on top of the street and the rest of the community living on the other parts of the street. And where i lived was mostly Black and we got blamed for a lot things going wrong in the city when most of us were not drug dealers, addicts or for the most part doing anything wrong. Most of us went to school played sports or watched TV and Kung Fu movies( LOL well at least I Did). But on TV when a crime was mentioned with a picture it was a black man being arrested for something minor or major and when i heard of a crime but saw no picture it was generally attributed it to a white person. That coupled with some of the same crimes committed by white people and black folks alike and watch them get treated and sentenced differently with in the same justice system put pause in my mind.
Now given the only White folks we mostly saw were either police officers (which were viewed as carry overs from the plantation), City council man or Generally the Man. LOL
But my life was a little different because i left with my mother to New Hampshire for my mothers scholarship into Dartmouth College. I was in 4th grade. Up until then I got a heavy dose of History of Hannibal the king, Shaka Zulu, Lewis Latimer, Harriet Tubman, Timbuktu and many many others….. So i had no issues with an inferiority complex . While i was in New hampshire at that time I had a few friends. One in-particular whose mother felt that we were getting to close and lied and told him that i stole something from him which i never did. But as a kid I didn’t understand what was going on and just figured his parents just didn’t allow him to play with me anymore. So i made another friend whose parent were cool but he had an inferiority complex that when i beat him in Tae kwon do He couldn’t handle it and we stopped being friends. But with at the same time I had one of the best teachers who was white that forever changed my life in mathematics in a great way. But while at school i was treated as the Evil black guy that everyone was scared of and only wanted to touch my hair. But as I got older we moved into southern NH were there was more ethnicity
and I was still seen as someone to fear because of my skin color. But it also worked in my favor with the ladies. Most of my friends at this stage were everything from Indian from India, Native Americans and some African Americans and Africans.
I moved back with my father when I turned 14 and joined a Judo Club in the city up the street from my house and in my neighborhood that was one of the only places that was very diverse. Since it was the only Judo Club in the city close the University we had engineers from California and all over to train Judo while they were there. needless to say i had great experiences there with all colors. But while being in the city my high school which was forced to have two other High schools crammed into and given a princple that only taught pre-high school grades. So we went from having say 500 kids to having 1500 for a building that could only hold about 800. This all happened right before the city council was to vote for new budgeting for inner city schools. Of over course we had more fights and other issues. This was seen as mainly again as the White suburbs trying to defund schools and use our school as an example.
Then I moved back to NH and i got my license. I got pulled over alot and asked questions like were are you going, do you live here, are you sure, do you drugs,weapons or dead bodies in my car? I was like WTF??? I go the police called on me and guns pulled on me. Now to mention i was never arrested or charged or ticketed for any of these incidents. Some of my friends that were like minded but white didn’t believe this shit was happening to me until one time they saw it for themselves.
Wow. My compliments on a deep and thoughtful comment.
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When I go to get my car repaired, I don’t argue with the mechanic over what is wrong. When someone comes to me for computer service, they don’t argue with me on how to best program the system.
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And therefore, if I am going to be intellectually honest, I must also conceded that my analysis of the Black American Experience cannot match your, despite my willingness to argue that it is.
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Therefore… I will concede the point. Rush Limbaugh is officially a racist. F*ck him.
LOL Malcolm you are funny… But thanx for the convo. I can appreciate your point of view.
I will try an d make this shorter. As a Black Man in America we are taught that our history only started in Slavery and ends with a Jail sentence until recently with our new President.
This country was built on race inequality to the core. ie: Slavery, Tuskegee experiment, Forced sterilization, Emmett till, trees with funny fruit, Jail time greater for Black folks when judged for similar crimes.
So Racism to us is not going to be over with one President. It is a start in the right direction but we have a lot to make up for. And no, no one living was a current slave master but the children of them have benefited greatly from it. I don’t blame All of any race for anything I think there are good and bad of every race. But when it comes to commentary people choose what they say on purpose knowing that it can stir up somethings. Rush just chooses a lot with race baiting. I feel that feeds the some of the underling feeling in White America and if it is okay to refer to someone and ignorant (bone in nose comment) and other things.
I cut my last comment short only because it will take up pages and pages since my life is examples of both Racism and Great people on both sides working together.
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