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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | 10:27pm
U.S. Death Toll Reaches 4000 in Iraq
a damn shame!
 
Hey Yo Bush!!!!! What the hell are you doing??????????????
FILED IN Need to Know, News
102 Comments »
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Bush doesn’t care. Send his daughters over there and then maybe he would change his tune about the whole war. Until then, everything else is just wishful thinking.
I actually think that none of the members of the senate or congress have a child in the war. This is the classic “old men send young men and women to war” In this case, they do not send their own young men and women. I just recall Bush selling his war to a believing and trusting public. Neighbors of ours swallowed it hook, line and sinker even as I explained the numerous untruths to them. He abused his “bully pulpit” in a way so horrible that he will make history as our worst president. This is a dark moment for our country. Time for some light to be shed on the truth.
His daughters and any and all descendants of bUsh will continue to reap the rewards of stealing our democratic republic from the people of the United States.
His GD father negotiated the Arms for Hostages deal that kept out hostages in Iran in the late 70s there until after the election and inauguration of Ronnie Rayguns.
His GD grandfather committed treason by trading with the Nazis during WWII. Go all the way back to the heroic vision of the formation of this country and you will find his GD TORY ancestors serving the King.
WE NEED TO IMPEACH THIS SOB BEFORE HE GETS AWAY.
If we don’t start impeachment NOW then G.W. Bush will pardon every one of the treasonous SOBs that have served him in his administration.
Please, please, please write to every Congressman and woman in the House of Representatives and BEG them as the brave and heroic soldiers who have seen the truth to IMPEACH BUSH and CHENEY — NOW.
Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, made some sort of sweetheart deal with the Bush Administration before coming to that role because the first thing she did after the massive electorate mandate in NOV 2006 against the war in Iraq and the Bush Regime. Why do I say this? Because the first thing she declared in her new role was that impeachment was off the table.
Please write your Congresspersons and tell them that you didn’t fight and have your buddies die in your arms to preserve anything other than Truth, Justice and the American Way and that our men and women in the Armed Services want Impeachment so that the improper use of our brave American Troops by Bush et al can eventually be brought to light and justice.
There isn’t much time left. Congress isn’t in session all that much between now and this November.
This is a great site. Thank you all.
Let me just say as an Assyrian Christian from Iraq, we as a minority and not being arab or muslem suffered greatly under Saddam Hussian, so I personally did not shed a tear when he died.
Now going back in 2003, while watching the Bush administrations justifications for going to war in Iraq, I thought to myself no way in hell with the American people fall for this propaganda. As bad as Saddam was, he was no terrorist in the sense that he sent people off to the States or any other country to blow themselves up or that he he nukes. He was an old school social fascist. He definitely was not a Muslim extremest of any sort. His ideology was simple, you follow my rules, and i will leave you alone.
Did the Bush administration lie, well not really. What they did was pray on the general public’s lack of knowledge of the facts and twist the truth to their favor. Sometimes perception can become reality.
Thats interesting. Many people don’t know that Iraq does indeed have a small Christian population. Thank you Assyrain for bringing that fact into light.
I’m pretty sure noone held a gun to their heads when they signed up for the ARMY. The ARMY isn’t exactly the safest brach to join, you know. ARMY/MARINES=Infantry.
I would just like to reply to your comment that the young men and women signing up for the Army and Marines are just that–YOUNG–often newly 18 years old. You don’t go from 17, 364 days–young, impressionable and to a full-fledged grown-up the next day. Anyone who has raised a child knows they aren’t really grown up at 18–or even at 19 or 20. In addition–military recruiters are trained to work these impressionable kids–they start working them in the cafeterias of their high school. Also, many kids who sign up can’t afford college or come from other difficult situations or backgrounds and see the military as their only option. Sometimes war is the only option, often it is not. I would just hope that all Americans take war with the utmost seriousness, are educated about the true reasons for the conflict as well as the culture and history of the enemy country(ies).
It’s so easy for Americans to say, “they signed up for it”–anotherwords–I don’t need to worry about it or think about it. How convenient. I believe it is only the people who actually have a child, grandchild, dad, mom, etc. serving in Afganistan or Iraq that could fully convey the reality of the situation to people such as the writer who prefer to deny that anyone needs to be concerned in any way about the young Americans giving their lives in the Middle East. I would love to hear a contribution from one of them–I’m sure it would make a mockery of yours.
I myself salute every soldier who serves and has served. They signed up for it–yes. I make a whole lot more money doing something a lot easier physically and mentally than they do and I don’t risk my life doing it. I say thank you to every single one of them and to their families for all of the worry and torment that they must go through not knowing for sure if there loved one is alive and well on any given day.
If the draft was reinstituted we would see a huge increase in the amount of concern and appreciation the American public had for these soldiers. Too bad so many people can’t feel for other families:(
Around 3000 of those 4000 deaths are ARMY and around 1000 are Marines. The Navy and Air Force sound like a safe bet.
It pisses me off when someone blames President Bush for having to go to Iraq. Were you not up to date with current events when you signed the contract?
I remember talking to an ignorant Army Reservist who had just come home from Iraq. He was bitching about how Bush is such an idiot. He said “I signed up for the Army to go to college and he sent me to Iraq”. To this, I responded, “Dude, you signed up for the fucking Army. Do you not realize what the Army does???”
Don’t join the Army if you aren’t ready and willing to die for your country.
Did I make my point?
What if no one signed up? Then we would have to reinstitue the draft and YOU might lose a loved one to keep your freedom. Ummmmm–I think the words you shoud have said to that “ignorant army reservist” were THANK YOU instead of “Dude, you signed up for the fucking Army. Do you not realize what the Army does???”. Maybe he would have felt a little better about risking his life for the likes of an ungrateful person like you for his $350 per week.
Good question. What the hell is he doing? I saw this on the news earlier and it made me feel some type of way. As soldiers we understand that losing your life is sometimes part of the job. However you can justofy it when you believe that you have died for something. I’m lucky enough to have made it through Iraq with my life. Unfortunately so many of my fellow soldiers have not and I’m sad to say that their deaths were unneeded.
Bush has twisted the truth to make himself feel like he’s doing something good but in reality he is directly responsible for 4000 men and women dying. Men and women who have left spouses and children behind. All for what?
Bush is NOT directly responsible for their deaths. Directly means he pushed them in front of the bullet, or he routed the convoy over the explosives/mines, or he launched the RPG that took down the helo. Also, of those 4000 deaths, not all of them were from hostile involvement. Do some research. And while you’re at it, look up the definitions of ‘direct’ and ‘indirect’.
Mike, did you get the sense from your fellow soldiers in Iraq that they knew what they were fighting for? Do you think their political views in the war ever played a part in the way business was conducted over there…on your level…as far as you and your collegues were concerned.
From talking to the people in my unit I got the sense that they believed that Iraq was somehow connected to 9/11 and we were somehow fighting terrorism. Whenever I would question that belief and state to them hard fact like the fact that there was no connection between Iraq and anything that took place on 9/11, they would often fall back on “we are liberating the country and planting the seeds of democracy”. Honestly I felt like most were very uninformed as to what the war was really about.
I dont’ want to paint the picture that everyone was like that but i think the military is very representative of America, especially conservative America in that they believe whatever Bush feeds them.
As for if political views affect business. Yeh it did. You have many people who were really “gung-ho” and ready to get the mission done. Then you had people like myself that felt more like a “merc-for-hire” just doing my job and collecting a paycheck.
Very Interesting. I guess when you get kids out of high school, especially those that have only been influenced by their small american town and their average american family they have yet to formalize an accurate view of what their country is really all about. Very interesting. I’m sure you could write a book.
Like other people throughout history, Americans are subject to corruption, and 4000 American soldiers dead in a needless war means that American government is corrupt. In business, politics, and religion, arrogant leadership functions like an addiction; making waste easier, deception smoother, and change harder and harder to achieve. Common sense says that if one person dead is too much death in a misguided campaign, then 4000 dead means negligent leadership has callously directed our nation too long.
Concerning human nature, there is nothing new under the sun, and The Bush Administration is the same old bad story that has historically plagued humanity. The story goes like this: Once upon a time again, cold-hearted incompetent ambitions hooked up with a forked-tongue, unbridled greed, and savage thirst for power. And in the ensuing drama, as trusting folks got horribly ensnared in the conspirators’ lies, innocent victims suffered and died in needless service to dishonest goals. Now, finally everyone and everything is approaching The End, where education for a superior story for destiny must begin.
Rev., Prof., Gola Wolf Richards, www.GolaWolfRichards.org
I don’t believe in God–but I agree still agree with everything you say in this post.
I am sad beyond any measure of belief at this news. Salute, brother. You are doing the nation and your fellow soldiers a great service with your open and frank discussion. We need a great deal more action in the public eye if we are to end this war. Secrecy and obfuscation are the hallmarks of the Bu$h administration. Only the truth will ever set us free.
We have lost far too many children already. Who in their right mind would have dreamed five years ago we’d still be seeing Americans die, see $12 billion a month squandered, and no end in sight. This is terrible beyond belief.
To the fallen, salute. You have given your last on this earth. May you find eternal peace.
To the friends and family of the fallen, my heartfelt sympathy.
Peace.
Thanks. you are right. that is money that could be put in other places. Heck it could even be used for the war in Afghanistan which has been ignored een though we had a somewhat of a good reason for engaging in that war. More importantly it could be used here at home.
People are saying that the economy is the most important issue in the upcoming election and the war in iraq is second. What most people don’t realize is that our economy is so messed up because of the war in Iraq.
How right you are. A nation spending the money on war and cutting taxes at the same time puts the entire function of the nation in danger. We cannot fuel our economy on the sole basis of a military push. We need a broad based spending and support which cannot exist in the face of the war drain. I can hear the sucking sound of money down the drain as I write.
Peace.
Mike, all of your comments show remarkable insight. Over a trillion $ on this war with so much more to come? No wonder the economy is tanking. The reasons given for the war are so weak, no wonder the international economy has lost confidence in the US ecomony and the dollar sinks like a millstone. But this administration and the neoconservatives had this war agenda all along, that is not the a big surprise. The media, the fourth estate, and stated by our founding fathers to be a necessity to sustain effective democracy, has let us down in not exposing the lies behind the facade.
Thank you Carl. I feel as a military person I owe it to myself to be informed on the issues that my ultimately cost me my life. I hate to be a doom and gloom but that is the reality of it. People die in war ans that’s a fact that I don’t think most Americans really really have let sink into their minds.
Mike Belgrove - Thanks for your visit. The voice of ex-soldiers, especially those who served in Iraq, carries much more weight than the rest of us. Sadly, there appears to be too few of you who care to get involved.
After publishing my post this morning I came across the NYTimes article about Jerry Ryen King. It included:
“I can’t stop asking why? The more I think the more I cry.” —Pfc. Ryan J. Hill
So many of the dead are so young. Those responsible continue to lie and brag. History isn’t going to judge them kindly but they will
not be punished.
Mike,
I came here as a result of your comment on Lex’s site. I’ll echo his sentiments; thank you for your service to the country. Every one of these deaths is a shame. My heart weeps for the families of those we’ve lost.
I’ve got to disagree with you about the necessity of the war in Iraq. I think after seeing the report showing ties between Saddam and several Al Qaeda connected terror groups (the media completely mischaracterized the report), knowing that Saddam had WMD’s and used them on his own people, knowing that he was more than willing to restart his WMD program as soon as the sanctions broke down, and knowing that Saddam shot at our pilots who were enforcing the no fly zone… I feel we had to go in there.
Jim C
I love being a soldier but i hate feeling like my life is disposable. The military’s job is to defend our homeland against threats domestic and foreign. Iraq was never a threat. to the US. That had no technology that would allow them to do major damage to US interest. When the term “weapons of mass destruction” was being tossed around we were talking about mustard gas. Mustard gas? not nuclear warheads. Not a incredible infantry and naval fleet. Just mustard gas.
And Saddam was never connected to Al Quadai. at least in no way that could mean anything. If the theory of six degrees of seperation are indeed true, than someone who wanted to could link you and I to Al Qaeda as well.
I recently read a very moving story by a mon whose son was going off to Iraq. Folks might be interested.
No — nobody Bush knows and loves is over there.
Bush is a moron…why are our troops still there?
Because he’s in no rush to bring them back.
He has a point to prove.
Because, Calmodity, of oil. The U.S. govn. is trying to get “Bremer’s” law passed by the Iraqi puppet government which will hand over Iraq’s oil to US / foreign corporations. See Iraq Oil: The Vultures are Waiting: http://indexresearch.blogspot.com/2007/09/iraq-oil-vultures-are-waiting.html
I really appreciate you for starting this blog. I think it is the right time that we should start questioning the worth of those who sacrificed their lives for a cause, which somehow i dont understand. To me this whole war is based on lies, which Powell told the whole world, in the form of his presentation to UN. Even the Germans, who provided the critical intelligence, are not taking responsibility for curve ball.
We should let our voices heard as people are dying from both sides in this non sense war and the world is now more dangerous place as it was during the era of dictator Saddam Hussain. More people have died after the invasion of Iraq as compared to the rule of Saddam so this makes Bush and Dick Cheney worse then Saddam. More US soldiers have died in Iraq then the total causalities of 9/11 and still the threat has not subsided as we are told by Bush. So tell me if we had spent the trillion dollars on donation and poverty reduction, wont we have a much different world today as compared to what we have now?
Thanks again for visiting my blog and giving me an opportunity to be in contact with you guys.
Regards,
M Junaid Khan
http://thelandofpure.blogspot.com/
Only by talking to one another across national lines do we as humankind have any hope of finding peace in our future. Together we can mount enough voices to end the tragedy one day.
Thanks for sharing your blogsite. I added a link on my campaign blog Northington08.blogspot.com
Please feel free to visit and to comment any time. All are welcome to make themselves at home in an open and friendly peace oriented atmosphere.
Peace.
Jerry
Muhammad is that true? I understand what you’re saying about the Bush Administration mismanaging the war but throwing a stat out there like that is a statement. Do you have citation on that fact? That’s a telling sign if its true. It would seem very hard to prove especially with all of the apparent deaths that occurred under the Hussain regime that went unaccounted for.
I don’t have a that shows death’s under Hussein vs. Death since his overthrow. However, civilian casualties (which the US government refuses to tally) are anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million. I don’t know how many have died to to malnutrition, lack of clean water, or no medicine but suffice to say a brutal military occupation by a foreign force hasn’t exactly remedied problems for Iraq. Was Iraq better with Saddam? I doubt it but they did have running water, electricity, a working sewage system but not anymore.
I think the only ones who can effectively answer that question is the people of Iraq.
You are a TRUE patriot who understands that war is always a failure for humanity…once you fire the first shot everyone has already lost. But I also agree that some times war is justified for the greater good, and Afghanistan qualifies but Iraq certainly does not.
John McCain is a Bush toadie who will continue to sacrifice American lives for his own demented and twisted reasons.
OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT!!
Its ashame. I always thought McCain was an honorable man but his desire to make his fellow republicans happy will only have him following the path paved by Bush.
Marcus,
Thank you for putting this sad war out there for more people to see. Hurrah for you.
I am a retired United Methodist Minister and wish for the return of the draft that I believe would bring this war to a quick end. The Congress, the Press, and the public are all failing our Country.
I must admitt that I haven’t been very proud of our Country in the way that our American Ideals have been torn down without any real public protest.
Thanks again for being one more person that is working to bring to light “This American Tragedy.”
Pastor Don Riley
Dear Marcus,
If we were to trace the origins of this mess, and if we take away all the patriotic/ideological noise of what happened immediately before, it is the very moment when congress relinquished its constitutional power to declare war.
The argument “… in the post nine-eleven world we should fight a different kind of war” is bogus. It was designed by the executive branch to intimidate and wrestle power from the legislative branch. We now see the tragic result of that move.
The bottom line is that Bush should not be singled out for responsibility over this war, but also all those who voted and gave the president the unconstitutional authority to go to war at-will.
The U.S. constitution should be restored after this administration’s term, if not sooner (impeachment? not likely…). This administration just doesn’t understand or care about the Constitution.
I commend you for doing your duties as a Soldier. You and the entire armed forces definitely deserve a better commander-in-chief.
Artin
Artin,
). Seriously though, I agree that our our country was based on the Constitution which is often ignored or or twisted.
I’m assuming you are talking to me and not Marcus since I am the Iraq Freedom Vet, not Marcus Holmes though he is a former park ranger and that has to be worth something (heard he once wrestled a grizzly bear to the ground with his bare hands
Mike, sorry for the mix-up. Yes, I was talking to you.. and yes, the premise that congress should declare war instead of a president is a pragmatic one: 435 elected members have enough collective intelligence to thoroughly debate the issue and then decide — As opposed to the president debating the issue with himself and with a handful of his unelected advisers. Those in congress who voted away their power missed this crucial point … and resulted in the loss of thousands of precious lives.
Artin
I love how you can (proudly, I suspect) name yourself as the “Iraqi Freedom Vet” in one breath, then turn and venomously degrade the very war that made you one in the next. That’s interesting…..
That’s a GREAT point!
Why are you anonymous? Stand by what you say.
There is plenty of blame to go around, but the fact of the matter is, Congress wouldn’t have voted for the war if they actually were not snowed by the W, Rove and Co.
Blame doesn’t bring the dead GIs back to life, now does it. The reprehensible shame of it all is that the damage is done and it’s a retractable situation.
How do we get out of Iraq when the President claims that while victory involves the withdrawal of troops (remember “When the Iraqis Stand up, we will stand down) and simultaneously says the withdrawal of troops would signify victory for our enemies? The President has us pinned against the wall with the gun pointed at our heads. Which comes first, them standing up or us standing down?
very good point.
Mike,
Thanks for your comments. I have great admiration for all young men and women who volunteer to defend their country at it’s moment of maximum danger. My problem with Iraq was that there was never any such danger and that Bush and Blair manipulated intelligence to facilitate a war which they had already decided they were going to wage.
I read a great comment the other day from one of the pro-war pundits who was now recanting. He said, “I knew Saddam was a monster, but I forgot that war was also a monster”.
Bush is now attempting nothing more than to pass this problem on to the next President. I can think of nothing worse than a president bequeathing his successor two wars that they are likely to lose and a four billion dollar deficit.
The idea that four thousand American families have been devastated for nothing simply horrifies me. And that’s before we even get to the damage that has been done to countless more families in Iraq.
And the Republicans say they are the party of personal responsibility? If Bush had any notion of that concept he would have resigned when his reasons for going to war were proven to be bogus.
Sir Anthony Eden had the good grace to resign after Suez, both Bush and Blair clung on after a much worse foreign policy disaster than even that.
indeed. Bush is just tryin to keep the dogs off of him long enough to pass the buck to the next prez. His hope is that when it’s all said and done he will be seen as the great president that brought the democracy to the Middle East.
I can assure you, Kel, there is at least one of those 4,000 plus familes who devistation has not been in vain. A Marine in my husband’s squadron was KIA during the first week of the deployment. His sacrifice has not lessened the support or gratitude his family has for our military, our squadron, or this war. They know why he went there, and they know he believed in his heart what he was doing was right and just. Do you really believe every one of the other families feel their lose has been for nothing? I don’t believe that for one moment…..
I’m no soldier…you’ll never find me on a battlefield but I do pride myself on knowing a little bit about Marketing and Business. This war was never about “our freedom” or “democracy.” It was about money. Oil aside, we know the Bush family and his aristocrats have financial incentive in the war, regardless of who wins or how many lives are lost. Companies like Haliburton are making a killing (pun intended) by allowing the administration to continue to do its best selling job.
They’ve marketed this war to Americans like a $.99 Cheeseburger at McDonalds. The Iraq “campaign” was marketed to us originally by using the very powerful Appeal to Pathos advertising tactic. Americans were still bent out of shape over 9-11 and the administration tried to take advantage of that to advocate a silly war. Weapons of mass distruction? Sounds like the McRib…only available for limited time so act now.
Now they’re selling us a new campaign. If we elect a president that allows the retraction of our young children from Iraq we’re endangering our National Security. That may be right, but its only because we went over there and picked the fight in the first place. What you think you can punch someone in the face walk away and not expect to watch your back?
All business and Marketing 101 people.
Another thing to think about is sometimes people just need to tell themselves these things in order to just get through the situation. I would imagine it’s a lot easier if you tell yourself it’s for some noble cause like ‘defending the country’ even if deep down inside, you don’t believe it.
Mike, thanks for posting this. IMHO, there’s blame to spread around. I knew that Bush was pushing a pack of lies. I knew that Powell had nothing when he went before the UN. If I knew, then the Congress knew, or should have known. A few showed courage and stood up to Bush, but the rest were spineless wimps.
Are you still in the Army? BTW, thanks for serving.
I am indeed still in the Army which means if the war doesn’t end soon there is a very high chance I may be back in Iraq doing another year long tour.
Bush may have the highest office n the land but we must remember that Bush works for the people not the other way around.
Mike, if you feel so strongly about Iraq, why go back? Make a statement, refuse to go. It might just take something like a whole mess of military going AWOL to bring the government and the people of this country to their senses. Either way, stay strong.
I wish it was that simple. I made an oath to fulfill my duty as a soldier and I intend to honor that. Plus desertion is punishable with several years of jail time and a dishonorable discharge. Not exactly a good move long term.
Mike, I feel for you. I know it wouldn’t be a ’simple’ dilemma. I’m looking at it this way, as an outsider: Like my friend’s son-in-law, Sam Nichol’s who went back for like a third tour of duty; the guy that went over is not the same guy that came back. Do you feel lucky? What about your family? I guess long term is relative here. For so many who go to or back to Iraq there is no ‘long term’ period. Just cold, cruel finality. I mean no disrespect to you, Mike. I have just become so anti-Bush, anti-war that any possible means of protest seems acceptable. Plus, I’d like to see you alive in three years to make love to your wife and hold your children.
I know what you are saying. It’s nice to see that someone even cares when there are so many who think getting killed “is just part of the job”. Thanks Danalee
Danalee ~ I certainly hope your becoming “so anti-Bush, anti-war” has not occured as the result of Sam’s injuries alone. Having watched Sam graduate, seeing the pride of his face as he became a Marine, and knowing he volunteered for his second tour in Iraq allows me believe this war is not in vain. Why would a man of his impeccable character return to a war he did not agree with? His return home should not be the sole reason for protesting this war. I’m curious to know what else you have seen, read, experienced, etc. that has changed your opinion? Sam’s injuries break my heart, and it is not easy to admit that he knew what could happen upon his return to war. His great sacrifice should not only make us prouder, it should allow us an insight into his beliefs. What about Sam do you know to be questionable or immoral? I know of nothing myself. That man has more loyalty, dedication, morality, and honor than 99.9% of the people I know. I do not believe he would have volunteered to return to a war he felt was unjustified or wrong. It is obvious that he holds many things dear to his heart. Besides the love of his life, Erin, he takes his commitment to our nation and the Corps very seriously. He didn’t have to return to Iraq. He chose to return. Doesn’t that tell you something???
Sam’s injuries and significantly changed life are not “just part of the job”. Every member of the military understands the possibilities of war when they sign the dotted line. I am so tired of reading or hearing the naysayers disrespect our men and women who fight for our very right to be free. Sam’s dedication and sacrifice not only make me respect him more, it allows me another avenue to understand why we are fighting in a foreign land. He may never be the “same guy” again, but he’s still Sam. He’s still here and you can see that in his eyes. My husband has come home twice without visible injuries and he’s not the same man either. War changes people….it’s a horrible reality we all have to accept.
Sam’s in-laws are extremely patriotic and dedicated to those who serve our country. It just seems so disrespectful to criticize and speak poorly of the war our heroes like Sam have chosen to fight.
As for your duty as a soldier, Mike, I don’t believe that includes criticizing and demeaning your Commander-in-Chief. That’s your right, yes, and you can freely speak your little mind. Even though you are a soldier, you don’t strike me as a man who is very pro-military. Perhaps you should think twice about reenlisting this next time around so you won’t have to feel as though you are just a pawn who may be killed as just part of the job.
My post on your blog today originally came as a response to your inappropriate and irresponsible post on the blog of a close friend who wholeheartedly serves his country as a member of the United States Marine Corps. This man has come home injured, yet he’s still strong and proud to have done what he has for America and Iraq. I find it interesting how you can disgrace him so easily by posting your disdain for our Commander-in-Chief openly on a blog being written to keep us informed and updated on his progress. This is most certainly a great faux pas on your part and it’s in very bad form. Honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself. Post to support his service, his path to recovery, or to show you sincerely understand the great sacrifice he has taken on for his family and country. Do not use the amazing dedication his family shows with his website to announce your contempt for the sacrifices others like him have made. It only shows a great deal of ignorance and bad manners.
After having read your feeble post, I feel more honored now than I ever have for the service of my husband and our friends. It is the sacrifices these people make that allow you to blast and disrespect the very core of our nation with your uneducated and insensitive posts. The 4,000 plus that have now died have allowed you to trivialize their choice to fight for, and sometimes die for freedom and democracy. I may not agree with every aspect this war encompasses, but I dare any one of you to look me in the eye and tell me what my husband and his brothers have done to help the Iraqi people is wrong or immoral. Helping those who are less fortunate and not able to protect themselves is the responsibility of those who can…namely America.
I wonder what has happened to you that you feel it necessary to use your right to free speech in this manner. To those of you that have served in Iraq….what injustice was served you that you feel the need to criticize a president’s actions so vocally and disrespectfully? I sincerely invite you to place yourself in his shoes for a day and see the outcome of your perception of how things ought to be carried out. No one is ever going to agree wholeheartedly with the actions of any leader we have; however, when it comes to the greater good of a nation, said leader has an immense amount of responsibility to ensure as many people as possible are being served fairly. Democracy is what gives us the privilege to vote and whine accordingly. Imagine if you weren’t afforded this right; how loudly would you object then?
To mirror Lynne’s post, I wonder how many of you have actually taken further action than simply blogging away your inadequacy to fully comprehend how this nation’s democratic system works. If you’re going to criticize President Bush for his actions, you had better be ready to throw that accusatory lasso around a whole bunch of other folks, too. It is not his decision alone that places our husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, etc. in harms way. Congress, filled with Democrats and Republicans (and I believe 1 Independent), voted to send our troops to war. This was not the push of one man alone. Ultimately, though, he is our leader. How many times have you ever stood up to take full responsibility for actions you knew had included those around you as well?
As for your choice to believe your service to our country makes you nothing but a “pawnâ€, I am confused. Likely, this is just the verbiage that allows you to justify your tantrum or just feel better about it. Having been a member of a military family every day of my 30 years, I have never once viewed those who serve as pawns who have simply said, “(h)ere’s my life to throw away as you choose.†I believe those are your words, Mr. Belgrove, and it is unfortunate to hear you feel that way. On the day you signed the dotted line and chose to become a soldier in the US Army, you did not become a pawn. Instead, you chose to become an important member of an intricate military system which utilizes its resources to their fullest extent. You swore to protect this nation from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and you have by deploying and serving in Iraq. Your choice to see yourself as a pawn should be your own opinion of your own actions and not that of our nation’s defenders as a whole. My husband follows orders, but he is not a pawn and he is not controlled. He is a United States Marine, and perhaps that is all the difference there need be between you two. For you to remain an active duty soldier who promises to protect me is an insult to me and your fellow comrades in arms. If your feelings regarding the mission of our nation’s troops are truly as venomous as they appear to be, you may consider removing yourself from the equation. This is not to say you should not have the right to disagree; it is simply a request to remember there is a time and most certainly a place to voice such opinions. A tribute to an injured Marine is simply not one of those places.
Mike, you are very brave to speak out. I know that you are not the only active service member against the war. You are all brave. It’s easy for me, because I am a retired old lady, with not much to lose.
Bush works for the people not the other way around.
You are correct. Bush was elected to serve us, as was the Congress. We pay their salaries.
I hope everyone posting on this site is voting this year… and not for the Republicans. They walk down this path of death and destruction hand-in-hand with the Bush Administration.
Case by case basis. To blanket call every republican a menace to society is to endorse every Democrat as angelic. Which of course they are not. Its almost like as if Bush has transcended his own party and done his own thing. His logo should be the Donkey’s ass.
Well certainly the Dems are culpable. And no, I wasn’t saying that all Reps are menaces. However, true conservatives should send a signal to their party leaders that endorsing the extreme right’s agenda was no good. Maybe your local races have more decent elephants. The big race here is for senate and Gordon Smith has been 100% behind Bush and his illegal and amoral war. He should pay by loosing his seat, even if it is to a moderate or corporate Dem. As for the big prez election? Who on this site wants to join me in singing “Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb Iran”?
Bomb Iran
So sad. All this discussion makes me realize is we owe a whole lot to our young service men and women who put their lives on hold and on the line for a cause they can’t even articulate.
In fact, I just changed my party affiliation to Democrat this year. God help this country if John McCain gets into the White House. We need to vote DEMOCRAT and vote for the candidate most likely to win–I’ll leave the identify of that candidate up to each of you. It’s on your head…
well agreed
Mike:
Thanks for serving - I might disagree with your political stance, see below, but it’s important that people serve.
Next time maybe you should sign up to be a General instead of an enlisted guy, that way you can pick where we’ll send troops such as you. And even then there are disagreements between the guys with all the stars, education and training, right?
Anyway: You also ought to, if you haven’t before this, look at history to get a view of how wars are sometimes fought. At the beginning of WWII, we invaded Tunisia. As far as I can remember, Tunisia hadn’t attacked the USA, either….and we even fought with some French forces there….and France didn’t attack us, either. But the idea was that we had our own plans, and we implemented our plans which called for getting at the bad guys, the Germans, where we had decided that we wanted to go, which was going ashore in Tunisia.
It might be a lot easier for you, and some of the folks who post on your website, to get your arms around the idea of attacking someone or some country IF ONLY those people would stand in one place, hold a sign saying “here we are, and we did it”, making sure that there were no innocents close by, and all that. But it just doesn’t happen like that. And in the case of radical Islamists, they are all over the world and they tend to hide and use civilians as shields. I don’t know how you or your readers want to handle the problem, but all of you aren’t in charge. It would help, however, if you would recognize that fact and generally get on board with the program, which program is winning currently. Or you can, as you are free to do, whine about it a lot.
Srcx73,
I never actually stated my rank but you are right I’m enlisted. I hold the rank of Sergeant and will soon be going to school to become Warrant Officer. You can’t really just “sign up to be a general” but i’m guessing you mean an officer instead of a enlisted.
I will never pretend like War is the way to solve certain issues however it should be a last resort. Iraq was not a “breeding ground for terrorism” like some would have you believe until we went in there and tore the country apart. And lives will be lost in any war but at the end of the day we need to be able to look things are say “Things are better now” and we wont be able to do that any time soon with Iraq
You can jump from E-5 to warrant officer?
4,000 dead. Wasn’t it only a few years back when Bush announced that victory had been achieved in Iraq?
Wasn’t it only a few years back when Bush announced that we’d be able to pull out as we train the Iraqi police and military?
And yet, here we are, five years later!
This war is now longer than the great Civil War, World War1 and World War2.
Despite what Bush says, this was and is only about oil. Plain and simple. The U.S. needed as many bases of operation as possible throughout the Middle East and now it pretty much has them.
Hate to break this to people but–we are NEVER pulling out of Iraq! Yes, troops will dramatically decrease, but we wil always be there….to protect the oil
Ugh, what to say! This whole war is a disaster. Now the military is sending sailors and airmen over because we are running out of warm bodies for cannon fodder. the individual augmentee program is the best kept non-classified secret in the US. People don’t believe me when I tell them that my husband, a ship driver, is going to be a ground pounder for a year.
Our military is way over taxes and it needs a break. Time to bring our troops home–NOW and take care of them when they get here!
i agree whole heartedly
The Navy isn’t over there to be a “ground-pounder”. They aren’t infantry. Yes, there are plenty of special forces, military police, seabees, and hospital corpsman working with the Marines, but no ground-pounders.
Saw your comment at Grandmere Mimi’s, Mike, and came to pay a visit and my respects. I’ve had a dog in this fight since 1965; it’s especially heartbreaking for us Vietnam Vets who hoped the country would have learned something from our losses. Maybe this time; for your sake and that of your comrades, I surely hope so.
Sergeant to WO? Yer not an agent, are ya? I was MI with the Cav; the other side of our hooch was run by a WO, who was replaced by an E-5 Sergeant.
exactly, they learn nothing and continue to repeat mistakes. thats one thing that I hate most is when people do just that
McCain Says we should be there another 100 years!
yeah I heard that dumb ass statement, so i guess we multiply that total by 100
McCain is an idiot. Between the lives lost and the money spent, enough is enough. We have home base to think about and their are a lot of folk that require education and jobs. That money can be spent right on American soil. Forget about the oil and turn to alternative fuels. Wishful thinking on my part but this war is getting out of hand and politicians seem to not care about the people.
Mike,
Thank you for speaking up.
It is great for all Americans to speak out against the war, but I believe that the greatest pressure will eventually come from the military men and women.
I believe that when those who have served begin to stand up, this war will finally be seen for what it is.
-Amber Culbertson-Faegre
Yeh i dont disagree with that but there are very few that will step up because they either dont understand that they are fighting for nothing or they have been brainwashed into thinking speaking out against the war is unpatriotic.
I hear you Amber, but one thing about service men/women they are extremely loyal so you probably wont hear stories from service people until well after the war is over. Anything else might be considered insubordination.
Two things:
One, there are representatives and senators with children in service. Not sure of all of them, but Sen. McCain has one son enlisted in the Marines (who’s been over at least once) and another at the Navy Academy. Also, Sen. Jim Webb (D-Va.) has a Marine son who’s been over.
Two, I take exception to something Musafir said:
“The voice of ex-soldiers, especially those who served in Iraq, carries much more weight than the rest of us. Sadly, there appears to be too few of you who care to get involved.”
Clearly “getting involved” means vocally opposing the war. Perhaps to the many “getting involved” means taking an oath and dedicating their lives to something they believe in. Not just with comments that preach to a choir on a blog, probably made during work hours at their day job.
And before you bristle, my comments cary much more weight than his.
I don’t know what Musafir meant by ‘Getting Involved’ but I know that there are people who don’t ‘Get Involved’. Rather it’s supporting or opposing the war, many just don’t ‘Get Involved’ they act as if nothing is happening and go on living like there is no effect on thier lives. This will hit home harder than through economics and gas issues, and it will hit soon. Secondly don’t hate on blogs like these, it is the way haow the common person can express themselves, everyone knows the media giants try to sway everyone to think thier way, so personally I like blogs like these to help get other opinions out there.
Later
Let me just say as the girlfriend of someone in the Army and possibly a future military wife, it is concerning to hear soldiers say that they want to fight for this country but not feel like their life is disposable. I do feel that when you sign up for the military you don’t get to choose which war you fight. But at the same time I would hope that our country would take the greatest care and give the greatest protection to our soldiers. Sometimes that means that we dont go to war unless we have the support of the world. Because in gaining world support we limit the number of troops that are needed. And don’t cause such a financial stress on our country and consequently half ass support our troops. War should be a last resort but this war has felt forced.
So you are saying that in signing up for the Army, I was saying “here’s my life to throw away as you choose”. That would make me nothing more than a pawn wouldn’t it?
In a lot of wars that is pretty much what soldiers are, in some cases what we all are, pawns. If the draft is started, then we will become pawns in the game to bring ‘democracy’ to Iraq. Only questions are who are the kings and queens?
I thought the government held the title of King/Queen?
Inf that’s the case who was Sadam and when Bush is done who will be King or Queen?
Bush is more like a tyrant than a King. He’s like Khan, Stalin, Hitler, Napoleon.
King/Queen is a position, not a person. I’d say between USA and the UK they are running things. Everyone else is just another piece to the puzzle (or would it be more appropriate to say pawns on the chess board?).
I guess you have a point there UT.
I think that you were saying many things by signing up for the army and I in no way want to offend someone that has served this country. But we all play a role in this country and soldiers long before this war have been expected to fight even when they dont believe in the cause. You said yourself that you cant just go AWOL because you took an oath. I am suggesting to you that this isnt the first or last time that a soldier will fight for a war he doesnt agree with. I also say to you that because of your statements, I feel that our government should take war much more seriously and only use when absolutely necessary. Its not throwing your life away to serve your country, whether you agree with the war or not. As for are you a pawn, I won’t touch that question. You are someone I respect and admire for your service.
I do not want anyone to think that I was disrespecting soldiers by saying that they are pretty much pawns, in the game of chess the pawn if played correctly can become a very powerful part of the game. But unfortuantly the government plays them as just that pawns. Soldiers have to do as they are told by a higher up with out any question or themselves face serious trouble. As a robot is built soldiers are to ask no questions, and do as commanded. When you sign up you pretty much extinguish all your rights and have to earn them back as you move up in rank. That’s just how I see it. Sorry if that offends any1.
Later
To everyone who wants us to pull out of Iraq now: All current members of the U.S. military are there by choice; no one forces them to enlist If they cry foul after they sign on the dotted line, they need to pull up their pants and take responsibility for their choice - made of their own free will.
As for Bush being a tyrant, you need to watch how Congress votes more closely, Juan. They ultimately steer this country in the direction the rest of us follow. They all want it to be Bush’s war now, but they voted to take us there.
My husband and son are both active duty. My husband was in both the Gulf War and in Iraq the first year. My son is headed to the Middle East next week - his fourth trip. He knows for certain he has killed one man who was firing an RPG at his squad in Iraq. He has caused no civilian casualties. He has served rebuilding Sri Lanka after the tsunami and in East Timor bringing food and medical supplies to the people caught in the middle of a civil war there.
The war in Iraq is being fought for reasons that all Americans benefit from:
1. Access to a steady oil supply (how many of you drive SUVs, like hot showers, and a warm house in winter???)
2. Keeping terrorists occupied fighting off U.S. soil.
3. Helping Iraq transition from a REAL dictatorship to democracy. It took the U.S. nearly a century to figure out how to create and sustain a democracy (1776 - 1865). If the Iraqis can do it in a decade, especially with interference from a multitude of sources, they should be held in the highest regard.
If we pull out without ensuring stability in Iraq you can bet oil prices will skyrocket to nearly $10/gallon within a year (see Europe), terrorists will be emboldened to attack Western targets throughout the world (likely on U.S. soil again), and countless Iraqis will be killed, tortured, raped, and subjected to every kind of degradation. We got Iraq in this situation and the various terrorist groups took advantage of the ensuing chaos; now we need to be honorable and help them rebuild their country. We did that with the German and Japanese after World War II, why do the Iraqis deserve less? Should we as a nation choose to do less, our legacy in the Middle East will be one of cowardice and self-centeredness. We entered this difficult journey with blinders placed by anger, fear, and the arrogance that it would be easy and quick. Doing the right thing is rarely easy and almost never quick. This can’t be accomplished during prime time. This is real. Blood. Guts. Brains. Dead solidiers. Dead children. Exploded homes. Lives. Real. I’ve been living in the thick of it for over five years and I really want it to end, but it must be done with honor.
If you truly want to do something more tha rant in a blog the you might try:
1. Keeping track of what your city council, county officials, state legislatures, congressional rep and senators do and how they vote
2. Vote yourself - in every election.
3. Volunteer to help vets or their families in some way
4. Help someone overseas with food, clothing, shelter, or educational needs.
If you choose to do none of these and simply continue to blog away, you are exercising the rights my husband, son and countless others have fought and sometimes died to ensure for you, while their families said endless prayers. On behalf of all of us who serve on the front lines or the home front, you are most welcome.
Lynn you have a unique perspective since your son and husband are active duty. And I understand your point that the men and women in the army have volunteered. I am not accusing anyone of taking us to war or questioning the reasons, in my question to you. I just don’t want to think of our US soldiers as pawns and I don’t any of them to feel that we as a country will sacrifice their bodies or lives unless absolutely necessary. I don’t want the US to continue with this foreign policy of policing the world which began prior to President Bush. The United Nations as a unit should have that role. What do you think of soldiers being thought of as pawns or sent to war without exploring all other options? I am just curious about your thoughts on that, since it is personal for you which many people may not be able to comprehend.
A man owns this wonderful tool that does all sorts of things and is much cherished. A neighbor asks to borrow it promising the proper care. The man catches this neighbor seriously abusing this favorite tool of his. He’s understandably furious at this person. However, he doesn’t suddenly hate his tool because he’s upset at the way it’s being used.
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Likewise, the military is a very precious tool of our government owned by us. The Bush administration is the bad neighbor that is doing the misusing and abusing. We still love the troops but we all have a right and responsibility to let our displeasure known when they are being treated badly by this or any administration that only has temporary custody of them.
“When history is written, Iraq will look just like a comma.â€
Zed Jones Unit
http://iraqjustacomma.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
Supporting the misguided Bush Administration has nothing to do with supporting the troops. The Republican party has made it very plain to every person that has served in the military, is currently serving in the military or ever will serve in the military that no act of heroism for your country or act of heroism for your home or act of heroism for your brothers and sisters in arms is worth ‘a hill of beans’ unless you submit to a particular agenda masquerading as conservative Republican.
Even the soldier who falls on the grenade is un-American if he’s found out to be a suspected liberal. After all if he’s Democrat it must have been some cowardly liberal plot that led that person to commit self assisted suicide.
The sad thing is they’ve made very clear to any soldiers, airman, seaman, or marines that may have been tempted to tell the American people the truth, whether it’s about the war, lack of proper military equipment, or their own mistreatment through sub-par states-side medical treatment, to keep they’re mouths shut except when regurgitating the Neoconservative talking points because they’re testimony is worthless and threatening to the Bush administrations public image.
make that 4004. Four more people have died since Monday.
I’m seeing a lot of people saying comments along the lines of “you signed the dotted line so you have no right to complain”. I have every right to complain and will continue to do so until I feel that fellow military personal aren’t dying. Don’t get it twisted. I’m a very good soldier and have never refused to obey an order. I realize that that is part of the job, to follow orders, but there is nothing that says that I can’t voice my opinion about how I feel on issues.
I’m a firm believer that we need to fight terrorism. That’s what we are doing in Afghanistan but no matter how you want to twist the truth, that IS NOT what we are doing in Iraq. Like I said before, the job of the United States military is to “protect and defend the country from attacks foreign and domestic”. How did we need defend ourselves from Iraq?
People want to talk so much about how this war is needed but they are saying that from the sidlines. I’ve been seeing the Army let people in recently up to the age of 42. That means the door is open for a lot of pro war people to join. But they won’t. they will just continue to talk from the side about it while others lose thier lives, kids are left without parents, and soldiers return home with mental illness. This is beyond the 4004 troops that have died. Way more lives are affected by this unneeded war.
With all that said, if the time comes for me to go back, I will buck up and do it again because that is my job. I will concentrate on getting the mission done. That’s what being a soldier is about, not keeping my mouth shut and sucking it up.
I hate to say it again….but yeah, you DID sign up for the ARMY. I think you are a disgrace to the military, and I don’t approve of your disrespect towards your commander-in-chief.
To the red 25 to 30 % especially those who aren’t vets and would never be caught enlisting for any reason.
It seems your reluctance to “stand up†for freedom and righteousness within your own country and its policies is based on fear.
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The fear is understandable; to willing stand up against power, when all you want is security. As long as you can have your lifestyle and be comfortable in your homes and feel nice and safe until you die you’re willing to have ‘Big Brother’ take care of you from ‘cradle to grave’. ‘From cradle to grave’ your willing to sell out your children’s and grandchildren’s future liberty, national assets and climate in order ‘to keep things just the way they are’, to feel secure in your finances and lifestyle.
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You’re willing to give up freely what others, who came before you worked, suffered and died for. Why, because you’re afraid of the boogie man from the Middle East who has the strange religion and frightening ways. You’re willing to throw it all away because of fear mixed with a healthy dose of ignorance and a smattering of hate. No amount of evidence can convince you seriously misguided adherents of anything Bush that you are willing victims of propaganda and lies.
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You don’t realize you have foolishly surrendered your loyalty to a man. You’re too blind to see you are denying your faithfulness to what you so proudly proclaim as God and country. You are swept up by the passion of conflict and follow along aimlessly, duped into following because of your own voluntary ignorance and fear of going against what seems popular with your peers causing you to halt any questions you may have floating around in your conscience.
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Fear of the legitimate threat of terrorism is allowing you to be weak on protecting our most cherished gifts we possess as Americans; our freedoms as set forth in our constitution and its amendments. You’re allowing yourselves to be taken advantage of by those who would desire to see your freedoms lessened for their own lustful purposes.
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Woe to those whose spirit compels them to speak against the flood of popular vengeance. The desire to strike back against a foe is so strong anyone trying to quell the rising tsunami of violence is flooded with anger, revulsion and distrust. The courage it takes to express legitimate descent is ignored as is their deep felt loyalty and patriotism. Throughout history their lot has been plagued with torture, exile and death.
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Everyone who interferes is perceived as being less than loyal and you’re willing to destroy them to keep yourselves feeling safe and secure. You call yourselves good and them bad. You use your abundance of possessions comfortable lifestyle versus their lack of anything, in the third world, as proof that you are most beloved by God; proof that you are doing everything God’s way; proof that God is on your side.
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You’re asking a small group of others to bare the burden of making you feel safe and secure. Your only contribution is to feign support by flying the flag in front of your home or placing the yellow ribbon on your car. When I see it there I wonder what’s truly in your head and whether you are only flying it because you have been possessed by extreme right wing nonsense willingly voiding your brain of any idea of what the flag really stands for. Our fathers and grandfathers fought under this flag in WWII defeating fascism in Europe. They were truly supported by sacrifices from everyone at home; industry included.
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This same flag is now being dirtied because it is being used as a banner for creeping fascism in our own country. They do not embrace Hitler’s, Mussolini’s, Franco’s, or anyone else’s version of fascism. They are playing with their own Neoconservative version. Future historians and political scientist may develop a better name but, for us, for now, fascism is accurate enough. It has been disaster in every country it has existed in and ours would be no exception. You people who have welcomed this filthy ideology have disgraced our flag, our forefather’s sacrifices and the very dust of their bones.
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You good Republicans need to develop the courage to see the truth because these monsters are destroying you from within and along with you they’re dragging the whole nation into disgrace. These are not your fathers Republicans they’re essentially fascists and devastation is their mistress.
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If you love your country, ‘Speak truth to power!’
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your service to our country.
Our people have not died for nothing. The U.S. needed to be defended from a lack of Iraq’s oil. Running out of oil would cause the deaths of tens of millions of Americans because without fuel, we can’t make and transport food. To protect us from the threat to our National Security, Cheney and other PNAC members consulted a super computer and/or a marketing think tank and figured out that the way to go would be to sacrifice people in the twin towers and use the 9/11 attacks as a pretext to liberate Iraq’s oil and to build that pipeline across Afghanistan to get the oil and gas from the Caspian Sea.
Would they do this? Sure, they ask soldiers to make the ultimate sacrifice to save other American lives. Collateral damage, civilian deaths, are seen as unfortunate, but not completely unacceptable.
The Americans who died in 9/11, I think were seen by the architects as American heroes who died for the greater good.
So, I think the way they really see it is that they are sacrificing 6 or 10 or even 50 thousand Americans when it is all done in order to save millions.
Other countries figured out the prize and they have been keeping the fighting going by backing various sides. But many of those others are also ahead of us on energy conservation so our demand may be highest.
Anyway the sacrifice our soldiers make is for a real cause, to save American lives over the next 10 or 20 years while we work on a different energy infrastructure.
I protested before the war because I saw that was going on and believed that the better way would have been to tell Americans the truth and to start converting our energy using some of the billions we have used fighting for the world’s last huge oil reserves.
The fact that we are running out of energy was, in fact, announced by the White House four months before 9/11 but who noticed?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/05/20010503-4.html